This is a collation of thoughts in mail sent to me in my various discussions over dry suit use. Because these were private messages, I've trimmed all headers, and also trimmed for brevity. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can effectively test and trim your neck seal in your living room. Go one thin ring at a time, and remember that a little tight is better than a little loose and leaking. I use sharp scissors with a long smooth blade to get an even edge. >52F is not only cold for winter time in monterey bay, it's as cold as I >think I've ever seen it in the past 4 years. Nah, I've been in 50-51 this year and 48 a couple years ago. My all time low was a reported 47. That was the dive that started me drysuit diving, 20 yrs ago. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > When I'm in warm water, like 65 to 70, I don't use an undergarment, just > > my swimsuit and _maybe_ a tee-shirt. > > that's cozy enough. Sadly I only get 65 by driving to LA. Have you ever > gone tropical with it? Too warm at 80? Oh yes, waaaaay to warm... if the water's that "hot", I just dive in the Polartech. > > The dry suit fuzzies or "wooly bear" suit is good too, but they tend to > > be too bulky under the dry suit and can cause problems with the dry suit > > zipper... the problem is that there are the little fuzz balls that > > always hang around on the zipper after getting out... makes for a > > So there are different types of dry suit underwear. I thought they all > fit into the category of fuzzies. I'm not crazy about bulk either. How > much did the mobby underwear run? DUI makes one (actually they make 3, one is like the M Exposure suit - the other two are nothing more than 2 different weights of polartech with a poplin outter lining), Whites makes one, Andy's makes one, even OS Systems makes one. The DUI and Mobby's are very similar with a slight edge given to Mobby's due having less bulk. The Mobby's is about $50 cheaper at around $250. I have never dove in the DUI product, but I't doesn't appear to have the same plus characteristics as the M Exposure suit. The White's is really expensive at between $325 and $350, their advantage if you like the wooly type is that they have a nulon panel parallel to the dry suit zipper, so the little fuzzball problem is diminished, but it's still an issue. The OS Systems and Andy's are also both the "wooly bear" design. There are other makers specific to dry suit use too, but they are either really cheap in design and assembly or just don't work well enough should your suit flood. --------------------------------------------------------------------- >So....my drysuit arrived in the mail Friday evening. It fits great except >for the neck seals that need trimming - right now they choke the life >away. Does anyone know of an available pool near Berkeley? Winter 98-99 >is going to be a boom for drysuits sales - the waters have been too cruel >to us wet divers. Wait til you get into 46 degrees this April:-) Re: the pool: Check with Cal School of Diving... they have a pool a few blocks awy from their shop. BTW, Jason, be VERY careful to trim a tiny bit at a time on the neck seal at a time. It's easy to trim too much. It'll choke the life out of you anyway... it took me about 50 dives to get used to a dry suit. Also suggest you use corn starch, not talc as some recommend. I was a religious user of talc until I found out it's molecular structure is almost the same as asbestos. --------------------------------------------------------------------- [from drysuit rep] Jason, for best results, strech the Neck Seal over the tank for 24 - 48 hrs. Be careful not to trim it more than one ring at a time. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I cut down the neck seal to a degree - it seals fine, but is still long > and rolls over itself. I've been tentative about going too far - does it > hurt to have it a little oversized? I didn't touch the wrist seals at > all, either. If the seal rolls up that's OK to a point. Try working the seal lower down your neck, you may still need to trim the seal another notch, but you should be OK. But, use your own judgement and don't cut too far for the obvious reasons. If the wrist seals are not too tight, definately don't trim them. > My first run was to test insulation - my Aeroskin (insulated) skin is not > up to the task. I'll probably try something else this weekend, but it may > be going in the direction of dry suit underwear. In water colder than 58* I strongly reccommend real drysuit undies, like the Mobby's product or most any other that's based on Thinsulate & Polartech with an outter nylon taffata cover. The Mobby's product is made for the Por suit and takes into account the cut and trim of the wrist and ankles A suit like that should regulate your body heat. > Bouyancy is predictable clumsy, esp with the low viz, high surge. Give yourself another 30 dives or so in the suit. Eventually you won't notice anything clumsy as the suit will behave like that neoprene suit you had 100 or more dives in. > Do you use your BC at all? And at what position are you putting your exhaust > port? I leave it wide open, you will appreciate this when you do ascents, especially from the deeper depths. The suit vents without you even having to think about it. > I loved the hands free ascents. Still getting used to the moving > squeeze. If you are really having a problem keeping the air in the uper torso, try ankle weights or even those Halcyon Dry Suit Gaters thatslip around you calfs. I only air up my suit to compensate for the squeeze, nothing else. I use my BC for all in water attitude. You can of course use the suit for emergency bouyancy should your BC somehow fail. > Came out nice and dry. While it felt pretty cold in the water, I don't > believe I chilled much. Oh yeah - isn't it nice coming out of the water with dry feet? > On maintenace - what sort of routine are you doing before/after the dives? I run hot shower water from the boat all over it before I take it off. Hang it to dry over a rail on on a hanger. Roll it up and pack it away. When I get home, I put it on a wide shoulder hanger and hose it off with fresh water. Make sure you run water in between the inner and outter shells - no need to remove the suit from it's velcro anchors, just slip the hose in and out between the spaces. I then hang it up and let it dry for an hour or two before rolling it up and bagging it away. > I have the talc (can't find pure talc) and parafin, not sure how much of > each to be using, nor how often. Only use unscented talc - Longs Drugs can order it for you for $8 for 7oz. I don't use talc, I can slip into my suit without it. I also don't reccommend using any type of wax on your zipper, the wax attracts dust and dirt with can get in between the zipper's teeth and compromise the seal. Remember, the zipper is brass - a soft contact metal that when in direct contact with itself makes an excellent seal. > There is nothing like being able to remove that suit and get right into > the drivers seat to drive off. And it seems like so much less gear now, > even though the suit is as big as the 4 neoprene items it replaced. Yep, and I bet the suit is overall lighter than the neoprene items too.... saves your back lugging your gear around. --------------------------------------------------------------------- [from drysuit rep] The Mobby's undergarment is specifically designed for drysuit diving, using a 200g thinsulate lining to wisk away moisture and provide thermal protection. The outer shell of the undergarment minimizes heat loss by not allowing air to flow through. The Mobby's undergarment, called the "Comfort Shell", retails for $360, but with the same promotion is $235. >I talked with Terry about maintenance and he said he didn't use lubricant >on the zipper to avoid it trapping dirt and grime. What do you think? Is >a light layer of parafin best? How do you care for yours? Yes, I concur, you will be better off not using any lubricant. Clean zipper with fresh water and use a toothbrush once in awhile. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I leave it wide open, you will appreciate this when you do ascents, > > especially from the deeper depths. The suit vents without you even > > having to think about it. > The catch is that early in the dive it vents too far easily when I make > small ascents. This is leading me to think about using the BC again. Is > the recommendation to use just the suit a answer intended for beginners? Always use you BC as the primary buoyancy device, use your suit only as a back-up for buoyancy. The suit was not designed or intended as a primary source of buoyancy since you can't subtly adjust air capacity and keep trim regulated with the air all over the place in the suit - also in a situation where a quick air dump is required, in venting a wrist or neck water will get into the suit. There are many who will argue (and practice) the point to use just the suit for buoyancy purposes - no BC at all - a practice used by commercial shell suit (Newt Suit) divers who don't have much of a choice in buoyancy sources. Their suits are so heavy and cumbersome to begin with, they have to use all of the 75#s or more of suit lift capacity. This practice has crossed over to sport divers diving dry with some successful, and alternatively, deadly results. We had someone out here last year who was using their drysuit as the primary buoyancy source. He aired up at -90' or so and was in an uncontrolled ascent -feet first up - to the surface the last -30'. He embolized, got bent... but survived. Something to think about in heavy current or surge. > > If you are really having a problem keeping the air in the uper torso, > > try ankle weights or even those Halcyon Dry Suit Gaters thatslip around > > you calfs. > I got the big rubber jet fins. The "problem" is just that I often go into > a head down orientation to get a look close look, which results in the air > flow to the feet, and the corresponding tightening on the torso. I would still try the gaiters, they prevent air from trapping in your boots from the get-go. The furthermost the air would travel would be down to your upper thighs. If you have the belt tight enough, the effect of trapped air in your boots is greatly decreased. Of course the best thing to do is to drop down feet first or level. > What was the warning about not letting the neck seal touch the hanger all > about? (in the manual) The concern is if you hang the suit on a narrow shouldered hanger, the stem of the hanger could stretch or put un-due stress on the seal, changing the "roundness" of the seal if you will. Also make sure your hanger is a nylon or plastic material, not metal for the obvious reasons. > I now am the proud owner of a one pound block of parafin wax. Wonder what > else it is good for. So talc's only purpose is for lubricant? I haven't > used it yet for donning, wondered if I was just putting extra abuse on the > seals as a result. Not really, especially with the Mobby's Super Latex seals. Other latex seals may require the talc with time, but that's because they are usually sun damaged or losing their slick skin to seal sealing effect due to general age - traits the Mobby's seals don't display. However, if you are slipping the seals on and they are rather tight, there is nothing wrong with a little talc - even on new seals - to aid in the donning. Just avoid baby powder and scented talc... the additives are not good for any suit's seals over time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Jason, I've now done about 20 or so dives in my drysuit - a Bare Commercial shell suit. It's taken that long to get rid of the "clumsy" feeling - I'm just now getting back to the relaxed feel (and air consumption) I used to have in my wetsuit. In Monterey you'll need good insulation under the shell suit - definitely a lot more than an aeroskin. I've got a thick fleece jump suit, but a while back there was a discussion of jump suits on BA diving, and the Northern Divers thinsulate one seemed to get the best things said about it. When you add more insulation you'll need more lead to compensate for the extra air it'll trap. I was using 24 lbs with a wet suit + hooded vest. When I first got the drysuit I had to go up to 31 lbs - for some reason I just wouldn't sink with less. Now though I find 27 lbs about right. Why I can sink now but couldn't then I don't know. You'll probably also want ankle weights if you don't already have them. When you have more insulation and hence more air in the suit you'll find the floaty feet problem worse. I could hover fine in a wetsuit without them, but I now have 3lbs (2 x 1.5) on my ankles and still have some problems - and my suit has leg gaiters. One dive I forgot the ankle weights (this was the point when I realized I no longer needed 31 lbs total) and found that if I didn't keep kicking my feet down I quickly ended up standing on my head. That was a miserable dive. I know a couple of divers who dive shell suits without ankle weights, but they both used to use them and took a long time to "wean themselves off" them. I was taught to use only the suit for buoyancy. Basically, the more air you have in the suit the warmer you'll be, so when you need to add air why put it in the BC? Another thing I learnt here is that if you're cold in the drysuit, you can add weight (within reason of course) and hence put more air into the suit which will help make you warmer. Sometimes I still feel a little chilly when diving in the drysuit (last Saturday in 46 degree water my hands and head were very cold) but the great thing is that when you get out afterwards you're dry and quickly warm back up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm glad to hear you only needed 20 pounds, but do I understand you were using a skin under your laminate suit? Enjoy the 20 pounds now, because any real undergarment is SERIOUSLY buoyant. I wear a VERY thick one, granted, and my weight goes up from 26 to about 40 pounds dry. So you know. Also, I would encourage you to avoid using your suit only for buoyancy adjustments, I find it's far easier to vent the BC, and you don't want to have trouble venting if you get a rocket ascent, right? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I make neoprene drysuits and work on shells. I personally do not recommend that anyone use their drysuit for bouyancy. If you should get a leak in your drysuit, your dive could become dangerous. The reason I leave enough room in the drysuit for air is to lift the suit off the chest to prevent suit squeeze. We recommend using a B.C for the rest of your bouyancy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I know that you are extremely active in your diving... But after reading your last few posts, I would recommend that you take a dry suit specialty class (the change over to a dry suit should not be so hard!).... As far as buoyancy goes there are know hard fast rules... but in general shell type from tri-lam. to Crushed neo. use the suit exclusively for under water buoyancy control. The exception to this is the dives that require doubles or when I carry a side slung bottle at depth; then you will use you BCD in conjunction with your suit. Reg. neo. dry suits use the BCD and suit for buoyancy under water. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I read your great epic report on ba_diving regarding using your dry suit = up north. My condolences. Let me preface by saying I love my dry suit (a = DUI TS350) but that wasn't the case for the first 10 dives in it.=20 All of the issues you stated (how much weight, how much warmth, to use = for buoyancy control, etc) are wheels that have been invented before by = all of us who thought we didn't need any help figuring this thing out. = Personally, I know now I was wrong about that. I belong to a dive club = that really cares about helping each other out and as an experienced = diver, divemaster and dry suit user, I offer my services to any of our = members who purchase new dry suits. I talk to them extensively before = the first dive, weight them properly and take them to Breakwater for = their intro to dry suit diving. I really believe this is essential to = learning this piece of equipment. Please do write up a report of all you heard from folks, and please = include getting proper training before striking off into the ocean on = your own (even if you have to pay for it). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >I added a pair of sweat pants and a nice synthetic pile sweater. >So in I come, adding 6 pounds to get to 24. In my experience, if you wish to maximize the warmth/buoyancy think about getting good Thinsulate undergarments. You can get the same thermal comfort with less bulk and less lead. Also, unlike pile/polypro/polarfleece the Thinsulate (type 2 marine grade) will provide some insulation if you get a partial or full suit flood. Bit more expensive though, the best Thinsulate value I've found has been the ND SPX Thinsulate undersuit. >Just about everyone that commented voted against using the suit >exclusively for buoyancy. This is an interesting one. I've been diving both ways, and now tend to dive as follows: With a single tank (76, 80) and no stages the buyoancy change from breathing down the tank is quite small (most dives under 5 lbs). I find it easier to dive in this configuration with the wing completely empty the whole dive when diving in a shell suit. The amount of extra air in the suit at the beginning amounts to about 2 liters which is small enough to be a non-issue. Now, if you start adding more gas things change, as well as with a neoprene suit. In those cases I would use the wing to compensate every time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I've been reading your excerpts in ba_diving about drysuit use. I wanted to share a bit of interesting info. I use a nice fitting polartec 300 DUI one-piece and a pile sweater under it as underwear with my drysuit which offers me a fair amount of mobility. I weigh 210lb and usually am ok with 28 lbs (4 or more on my tank and the balance on my belt). I would make sure to take an almost empty tank at <500psi and make sure you can stay neutral at 15 feet. Being able to control ascents is very important if you are using your suit for bouyancy only. Now then, when going deeper and colder, having a bit of extra weight will allow you to inflate your suit more and therefore get more insulation around your torso - since the air mostly stays around that part of the body when upright it acts as a very effective insulator. I have been in 41F water and felt my chest totally warm, something that feels eerie and strange, especially when your chin and hands are freezing... I feel you should use your suit for buoyancy control and leave your BC as a back-up for surface swiming and in case your suit fails. It is much easier to roll over on your right side and vent off air as you ascend than to have to play with your BC purger - at least in my opinion. Conversely, wearing more insulation, and using your BC only may result in your wearing less weight which your back will be thankful for. However, the more insulation you wear the harder it becomes to vent air (if you do pump any significant amount of it in your suit) if your fit is tight because you have more material pushing up against the inside of the exhaust valve, so naturally it would make sense to use your BC for bouyancy in this case because purging its air would be comparatively faster. The dilemma is sacrificing mobility and being slightly colder for warmth and being more weighted. This, obviously, is compounded by your blood chemistry, i.e. what you have in your stomach before the dive. If you dive on an empty stomach you will be colder..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I don't have many dry suit dives under my belt yet, but I've never heard anyone suggest that the BC be used for buoyancy control except at the surface. If you have air in both the suit and the BC and you fond yourself in a situation where you need to dump air in a hurry, it'll get awfully confusing trying to remember if the BC has air and which you should dump from. I would suggest that dry suit diving is not the best thing to leave to trial and error. It wouldn't hurt to take a quick class. Everyone I've ever talked to say they wear more weight diving dry than wet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I, too, have found the dry suit buoyancy discussions interesting. A few folks pointed out that different techniques work better with different style suits. I thought they were great points and I probably agreed 99-100%. That might mean that most of the one-sided folks may be using the technique that best works with their suit. If you are going to put together a survey, when asking someone what method they use, it would be good to ask what type of wetsuit (neoprene, crushed neoprene, tri-laminate/"bag") they use. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Just a couple of notes on you latest dives. 1) Make sure your valves are tight. They may be a little loose due to the material compressing between the front and back of the valve. To tighten, hold the front of the valve in place while turning the valve back clockwise. 2) Your neck seal may be a little loose. If that is the case, I can easily take it in for you. I always expect to take in the seals on my custom suits while the material is getting worked in, then you should be set for awhile.